Spotify's Monetization Mystery What’s Missing?

Dave Jackson: 0:24

Ask the Podcast Coach for November 16th 2024. Let's get ready to podcast. There it is, it's that music. That means it is Saturday morning. It is time for Ask the Podcast Coach, where you get your podcast questions answered live. I forget which button this one. I am Dave Jackson from theschoolofpodcastingcom, and joining me right over there is the one and only Jim Cullison from homegadgetgeekscom. Jim, how's it going, buddy?

Jim Collison: 0:54

Greetings, Dave. Happy Saturday morning to you. I thought you were going to say I forgot who I am. It's been a while. It's only been two weeks. Only been two weeks Welcome back everybody, Glad to have you here.

Dave Jackson: 1:10

Yeah, I was at Pod Indie last week. Myself and Craig Van Slyke from AI Goes to College, did a bunch of presentations, met a. It was a, as they say. It was a intimate gathering, so it was small, but it was fun. Got to meet some fun people and got to do duck pin bowling. If you haven't heard my last episode of the School of Podcasting, that's where I explain what duck pin bowling is and it was equally frustrating as regular bowling, but you always got some and I got to get some good bowling alley food and you know what's. The best thing is to wash that down with that.

Jim Collison: 1:36

Well, bowling alleys have some pretty good coffee. Let's pour this thing.

Dave Jackson: 1:39

That's it. And, of course, that coffee pour is brought to you by our good buddy Mark over at podcastingco by our good buddy Mark over at podcastingco. The beautiful thing about Mark is he is a podcaster and he's an award-winning graphic artist and I've used him for a ton of my artwork. And if you want to look good, because they're going to see you before they hear you, then you got to go to podcastbrandingco. Now the beauty of it is the process. He's going to sit down with you and go over what you want your show to be the flavor, the vibe of it and then so many people on Fiverr and stuff. They want you to put your marketing brain on and tell them what to design.

Dave Jackson: 2:22

And Mark's like no, that's backwards. Let's figure out what your show is and then what the vibe is and let me do the marketing part, which makes so much sense, which is why everything Mark gives me and I'm like, yep, that's exactly what I was looking for. I remember with the school of podcasting, I'd kind of given the idea to a couple people and it just wasn't working. And then Mark said, oh, like this. And I go yes, that's exactly what I want. So when you want to look good. There's only one place to go, and that is podcastbrandingco.

Jim Collison: 2:56

And, of course, a big thanks to our good friend, dan LeFebvre over there. Based on a true story, based on truestorypodcastcom. When you think of Bogart, when you think of Bergman, you think of Casablanca, and that is what Dan is covering this week out there. If you want to check it out, don't forget Miracle was a couple of weeks ago and Casablanca is this week. Give it a listen, listen to it today. Maybe just take some time out. Based on a true story podcast. Dave, have you ever seen?

Dave Jackson: 3:22

I've never seen the whole thing. Everybody's seen the looking at you, kid, kind of thing, but I've never actually wanted because I'm just sitting there going wait. That's based on a true story.

Jim Collison: 3:32

I did not know that. To find out head over to basedonatruestorypodcastcom.

Dave Jackson: 3:36

Exactly, we did have somebody send in a question and well, that's fun. I'm clicking buttons behind the scenes and things are popping up and all sorts of fun stuff. This is from Ray, from over at aroundthelayoutcom, and that is what are your thoughts on allowing how you have the different players and you can turn on or off the MP3 download? He says as the person below so the person below was somebody went to his website and contacted him and said please add a download link. I don't use any podcast services, I download to USB drive and connect in the car. And I was like so he says I'm a bit concerned about having the podcast loose, right, just a floating MP3 that anybody could do whatever they want. And he says where someone could potentially modify or redistribute it without having Ray have anything to do with it. So it's out in the loose.

Dave Jackson: 4:30

And so for me, I love when people make a download available, because there are many times when I just want that episode. I don't want to subscribe, I don't want to follow. You've interviewed somebody that I find interesting and I want to download it and list it into it on my computer, or for me, I will download it and upload it into pocketcasts or podcast guru or whatever I'm using which is easier than searching, finding the show. Oh, that's not it. Oh wait, that's it okay, but I don't want to. I don't want to follow, I don't want to subscribe, and now I got to find the episode. Scroll down, I'm like so. I love when people put a download link. I don't know what are your thoughts, jim, on this?

Jim Collison: 5:07

no, I think you got to provide it. Listen there, I think there'll be less and less people doing it that way. That was a real common way a couple years ago. Maybe five, six, seven, eight years ago you had to do some gyrations. I think we're to the point. I was just having this conversation with one of my producers at work just yesterday.

Jim Collison: 5:25

That boy, the landscape has really changed when we think about file size because that used to be a big deal, like, don't make the files too big because there's parts of the world that don't have great internet and listen, that's still true, but it's less and less all the time. And I don't even think twice your phone, we used to maybe make them smaller because your phone storage was smaller, your player storage was small. That's really not a thing. I mean, the phone sizes have grown exponentially. Podcast file formats have not. They've stayed the same, right. I mean MP3, whether you're doing 112 or 192 or 3, whatever. Those files have all stayed the same.

Jim Collison: 6:08

You can, I think for most people, get away with just about as big as you want and it doesn't matter anymore for the most. Now someone's going to write in and say it does. It matters for me and actually for this individual, dave, that you're reading the question, it sounds like it could matter too. They might be using old equipment or they want to transfer it over, and so size maybe does matter in that case. But provide it, because you never know. I mean, I get requests from time to time for a video RSS feed and you're like why Just watch it on YouTube? No, they don't want to do that, so I don't think it's a bad idea to have it available.

Dave Jackson: 6:44

Now I'm a weird case, but like I'm working on an episode about asking for advice and working with coaches.

Dave Jackson: 6:52

Well, jordan Harbinger did a great kind of episode on this and I was looking for a quote that he said. So luckily Jordan made it to where I could download the file, which I then uploaded it to Otter and then searched for the phrase that I was looking for and I found it like that. And then search for the phrase that I was looking for and I found it like that. So instead of having to listen to this like I don't know 45-minute episode, like I was able to find it like that and make that clip and I was like so that to me a lot of times is why I want to download it, because I'm like I'm not really your listener, but you said something cool and luckily I now know like on Captivate they have a share button and under the share button there's a download option which, again, you can turn on or off. But there are a lot of times I'm just like there's no way to do it and that whole nine yards.

Jim Collison: 7:38

Simple Podcast Press makes an easy checkbox that you can make it available, right? So I think, depending upon what you're using on your website, that may literally just be a checkbox and make it available, and then you don't have to think about it, it's just done and listen. There are other ways to grab that. There's in the chat room. Randy was talking about some things. There are other ways for them to get that download, but you may have some challenged, some technology challenged podcast listeners who don't like. What they're looking for is a button that says download. That's what they're looking for. Yeah, right, they're going to your website and looking for it. So don't make it hard for them, just make it available yeah, I and I always.

Dave Jackson: 8:20

If you're worried about people stealing your stuff, randy pointed out, all you need is the rss feed and it's a podcast. I mean I can govalidatorcom type in the name of your. I had to do this today For the wheel of names. I changed somebody's artwork out and so I went to feedvalidatorcom and I said define my feed. So I put in the name of the show In this case it was Spybrary and it said here's your it.

Dave Jackson: 8:42

I remember I mean this was forever ago, but I was teaching a course in Microsoft something, probably PowerPoint or whatever and I remember there was an artist in the room and she said well, I have my paintings on my website. Can I stop people from stealing them? And I went no, and she went what? And I go, well, if I can see it or I can hear it, I can steal it. I said now the difference is I can download that image from your website and I go. And if you made it like 90 dots per inch, it'll look great on a screen. I go, but it'll look awful if somebody tries to print that out. And I said but if somebody just wants to look at it, I mean when I go to my note joy here to show questions. That's just a screenshot. So if I can see it, I can take a screenshot and it's mine now.

Dave Jackson: 9:37

So if you and those people don't have any money, so they're going to spend their time because they got tons of that, because they're not going to work, I don't know what the deal is, but they're going to pay. That person is never going to pay for your stuff. I mean, that's just the way it is. And there are people that, even if you don't have a download button, the whole reason there's a lock tag in an RSS feed is to put up a hurdle somewhat small but it's a hurdle from people copying your show and resubmitting it to somebody and putting ads against it. So again, back in the day of teaching, I used to tell people about the internet. The internet is like main street you've got stores and you've got this and that and this and you've got hookers and blow. Well, there's a will.

Jim Collison: 10:23

There's a way right and you can. You could put watermarks on your art. You could put watermarks that's not what they call them, but you can put watermarks on your art. You could put watermarks that's not what they call them, but you can do that with your audio too right. I've heard people. Downloadable audio.

Dave Jackson: 10:36

Audio jungle.

Jim Collison: 10:40

Yeah, remember those days. So, yeah, there are some things you can do. But if you put it out there, people are going to find a way to get it if they want it bad enough.

Dave Jackson: 10:50

Yeah, that's it. Well, I want to. We're going to change pace here. I'm calling this the prompt hurdle world. This is from Craig Van Slyke from AI Goes to College. Now, if you're like, well, I'm not a professor, I don't need the goes to college part. They talk about AI and a really interesting discussion over there. And so I have this prompt. It went to ChatGPT, by the way. I don't know what they paid for it, but ChatGPT now owns chatcom and I'm pretty sure that wasn't cheap to get. And so here's my prompt. It says I host a show called the School of Podcasting for Podcasters. I'm interviewing Jim Collison from Home. Gadget Geeks Provide some questions that Jim hasn't been asked before. I also plan to create YouTube shorts. I'm going to fix my typo here because you don't want to confuse ChatGPT. It's pretty good at getting past your fat fingers.

Dave Jackson: 11:39

Yeah, I also plan to create YouTube shorts from this content. Any questions that would make a good YouTube short, please bold? So when I click on go, it thinks about it and because Jim's sitting right here, he can tell me if these are good. So you can see some of these are bold, like here's one that isn't bold, let's see, it's okay. What's a piece of advice you'd give to your early podcast self that no one ever mentioned to you? That's not a horrible question, but here's one that's in bold.

Dave Jackson: 12:05

Yeah, what's one thing about podcasting that completely surprised you, even after years of hosting home gadget geeks, so that could be a cool YouTube short. If you could use three gadgets for podcasting, what would they be? And why, notice, none of these are yes, no questions, which is good. What's the weirdest or most unexpected place you've ever recorded an episode and how did it turn out? What's the most creative way a listener has ever engaged with your show? I like that question have has any tech innovation or gadget ever made you rethink how you approach podcasting?

Dave Jackson: 12:40

so I just to me yeah not bad questions, like not the best question ever, but what? What I love about this and this is what I use. I'm using more and more chat. Gpd is brainstorming Because I'll be like, oh you know what, that's not that great. But if I did this with like I'll combine two questions or whatever, if Home Gadget Geeks had a tagline written by AI, what do you think it would say? See, that's an interesting question, because when you get people talking about their own stuff right that in a way that they probably didn't think about, you know what I mean it's like so, but I guess the question is have you been asked these before?

Jim Collison: 13:20

no, I haven't been, but I have been interviewed a lot about podcasting at least lately yeah, I don't get interviewed for that very often yeah, so it was you know. Here's what's interesting, though, dave, as we think about this. Like you ask me questions indirectly, like we cover these questions every single week, like well, in the prompt you had talked about home gadget geeks, I wonder if you added in ask the podcast coach into the query if it would see it as different, because would it change?

Jim Collison: 13:54

so if you go up there, and I'm gonna say, I'm gonna copy instead of yeah let's just do this again I wonder if it it gives you a little bit of a different prompt there at that point, because the body of work on Home Gadget Geeks really isn't about podcasting right, we cover technology topics, get a little nerdy on it, so kind of wondering here you got some results coming up.

Dave Jackson: 14:17

Yeah, here are some fresh and unique questions for your interview with Jim Collison from Ask the Podcast Coach. What's a common podcasting rule you think is overrated or even wrong? Ooh, controversy right out of the gate. If you had to rebuild your podcast from scratch tomorrow, what's the first thing you'd do differently? What's the best piece of podcasting advice you ever received that wasn't from another podcaster? See some of these. That person might go. I don't have any, but that's why you go. That's called editing kids. That's when you're like, oh, that one's not going to make it to the public. What's a technical mistake most podcasters make? That's actually super easy to fix, not pressing record.

Jim Collison: 14:55

Exactly Record everything.

Dave Jackson: 14:57

Yeah, how do you keep the energy fresh when you've been podcasting for as long as you have?

Jim Collison: 15:01

That's a good question. That is a good, that's a really good question. Yeah, I like that one.

Dave Jackson: 15:09

How good question. Yeah, I like that one. How do you keep it fresh, jim, are you?

Jim Collison: 15:11

actually asking yeah, let's actually talk about that. Yeah, how do you keep it? How do you keep that's so is it as we think about? I've been doing this 12 no, 14 years now. I kind of lose track after time. Yeah, how do you? Well, I think you have to.

Jim Collison: 15:24

For me, anyways, you have to cover topics that you really like and you have to do it with people that you really like, and you have to do it with people that you really like, otherwise it starts grinding on you after a while and even with topics that I like that there are some, you know, you kind of go okay, we've like how long will AI last as a topic to talk about? I mean, it's fairly new in the last couple of years and some of the thing it's doing, there's some fresh stuff like we're doing today. This is kind of interesting to do it, to talk about it in this way, show it live, do some demos or stuff, but I think with the personalities, that's the hard part. And listen, if you're getting pushback from home, that's hard too, right. I mean, how long can this Dave Like? How long? Right, how long can you continue to do this when the significant other or family is like can you not do this anymore?

Jim Collison: 16:17

This is getting to be a problem, right? So I think you got to have some harmony in the family. You got to have a good. You have to have some good topics that you like to talk about and maybe know when to stop. Have a good. You have to have some good topics that you like to talk about and maybe know when to stop. Maybe know when to stop either with the family or with the topics.

Dave Jackson: 16:33

Well, I remember when I would my it was just a spare bedroom, was kind of off the living room. So it would be great if you had like an elder parent or somebody didn't want to go look upstairs, but we turned that into my studio and I would just walk out of the living room and go in there and I'd be like, hey, I'm just going to check my email for a second before we leave and my now ex-wife would go all right, I'll see you in 45 minutes. And it was funny because I was like it's not going to take 45 minutes to check my email and then I'd come out 45 minutes later and like that. So yeah, some other AI stuff.

Dave Jackson: 17:06

Coach Dave says I will gather as many interviews and blogs the guest has made, pull transcripts, load them into ChatGBT and ask for questions. Often asked, never asked. And he says I get some good stuff. So again, I think it's a great idea to brainstorm with this stuff. Speaking of AI goes to college. Ask. Ralph says Craig's show is great, even if you're not into higher education, even idiots like me understand it. Well, holy cow, that should be his tagline. Even idiots can understand it. Put that into your show, craig, and then Jeff C I did this week and I was like, is this a good idea? I found, if a person you're interviewing gives you a PDF of their book, adobe Acrobat's AI is great for giving you some ideas for questions. So what I did was I uploaded it to notebook whatever it is, lmgooglecom, and it gave me some amazing questions but I was like, yeah, but now that guy's book is in the AI world Like there's probably there already.

Jim Collison: 18:08

That's it. It was probably there already.

Dave Jackson: 18:09

Yeah, because I'm like he gave me a PDF. I'm probably not the first person to do this, but I was amazed because I had told him. And, by the way, first of all, it's great when you have a guest that you trust is going to bring good content. Because he approached me he's been on my show and he said, hey, I wrote this book, but it's about mindset. And I was like that's not an exact fit for podcasting and so I had Notebook LM. I'm like, hey, read this and come up in it. It gave me like a study guide and all sorts of stuff and I was like, oh, and so then when we did the interview, I had these cool questions and then I had Kyle and Sheila do a. They did a.

Dave Jackson: 18:48

It was weird the guy and the woman and they gave me a 20-minute version of the book in which, at the 10-minute mark, they're like hey, we'll talk about this more later. And he's like, yeah, we'll be right. Like they actually made an ad spot for the thing. I was like, okay, that's weird, all right, we're back and we're talking about which was, again, it gave me enough information to ask good questions, like I'd be like, oh, that's cool, I got to ask about that and have him expand on it. So that was one. I don't know that I would do that. I still think the best thing is to read the book. But I was kind of like in a time crunch and I was like, oh, wait a minute.

Jim Collison: 19:31

I need summary of this, so it is a good sum summarizer. I may call a little BS on some of this AI stuff. Based on the questions you gave, I went to the open, open AI chat GPT version and said hey, do you know Dave Jackson? And it gave me this thing. I like to make sure it has context before we start doing queries. And then I said I'm Jim Collison, I'm the co-host of ask the podcast Coach with Dave Jackson Do you are you aware of our podcast? And the chat GPD was like oh sure, you guys do you talk about audience growth and monetization and industry trends and podcaster mindsets, right? So it's given us this, all this stuff. And then I said give me some questions that I can ask Dave that he's never had before.

Jim Collison: 20:07

These questions sound a little similar to the ones you just gave me. Like, if podcasting started today knowing what you know now this is a question I saw in the one that you were just reading what would you do differently? Right? Here's another one. What's one lesson you wish every podcaster course taught, but most don't? Now, that wasn't there, but that's kind of. Here's another one. If you could design the perfect podcasting platform or tool, what features would you have that in current platforms that are missing? So a little bit different there's. What do you think podcasting industry will look like 20 years from now? Oh, what unconventional or weird habits do you have when preparing a recording podcast that works surprisingly well for you? I don't know. I mean, yeah, they are questions. Have you not ever been asked those questions before?

Dave Jackson: 21:10

Some of those I haven't. But here's the thing. Some of those questions like if I'm going to ask somebody what their favorite book is, I'm probably going to give that to them ahead of time. Yeah, because they're going to go ooh man, it's a good, I think it's maybe no wait. So there's going to be a lot of that. So if it's something that they require some thought, I might. So if somebody asked me about a platform or what feature it doesn't have, I'd be like, let me think about that one a second, because most at this point I think we have pretty much all we need. But there's some like. Some like captivate has their cool guest form and pod page has a cool guest form. I haven't. I'd have to think outside the box to figure out what we're missing an easy way to send people money without taking a large chunk of it, but that that's just business. So yeah, it's interesting, so yeah.

Jim Collison: 22:01

Yeah, no, listen, not wrong, I don't want to get. I said I want to call yes on this. There's some great stuff here. I just think be eyes wide open going into this. If you're going to pull, if you're going to ask these questions. It knows a lot. It could pull some things. It's not. It's almost not always true. It sounds good enough to be true. It probably isn't, so just be skeptical.

Dave Jackson: 22:27

Well, and the thing it always comes back to me knowing your audience, that's a foundation and just because it gave you a question, and even if it is something that hasn't been asked before, is it a question your audience would ask or cares about, Because you can go oh wow, they gave me. I'm going to go like some people might take this and just take it as a list. And then somebody is like and then I killed my parents with kerosene. Great, If you could get a gadget specifically for like. They're just going down the list. They're not even listening to what you said.

Jim Collison: 23:02

Right on. It's like if, all of a sudden, I said to you in the middle of this conversation so what's the most memorable piece of feedback that you've ever gotten? Well, we're not talking about feedback. We're talking about questions that you've been asked before. Right, yeah, and so you can get locked into the questions too right, yeah, and so you can get locked into the questions too.

Dave Jackson: 23:22

Well, the thing I liked, before craig even started, is he really said hey, here's. I think he said either at the beginning or the end, but anyway, he made the point that I always say use this as a tool to help shape and polish your content. Don't have it, write the content and then you try to figure out what. You know what I mean. It's like. It's a collaboration and make sure you know it's your content that's being published.

Jim Collison: 23:45

So this week I used. We have a version of Copilot at work that we've paid for. I can upload files, we're protected, it's stuff. It's not sending the data out to the servers, it's so we can run like proprietary internal g, internal GALA data behind the scenes. Yet we can use Copilot to get it done. It's really super cool.

Jim Collison: 24:04

But I took a file. I get a file every day of customers who, who certify, recertify and certify on our certification, on our coaching platform, and it's the same layout every day. And I thought, oh, you know what, Maybe I can write a standard Copilot query that I can upload the file and then tell it to do all these manual processes that I do every day. I go in and sort it and check it and look for some consistencies in it and then I take a portion of it and move it to another file. Not earth-shattering, not hard. You could easily program this.

Jim Collison: 24:37

Now. It's not high on our priority list, so getting a programmer to do it right now is not, is not going to happen. So I thought, well, maybe I can just have Copilot do this for me. So I wrote this query, got it kind of standardized, got it kind of working and then said okay, let me test it with a new query. So brought the file in copy and pasted the query I'd been working on from scratch. Ran it? Not the same results at all that I had been expecting from the first query yeah, and it was like I was expecting.

Jim Collison: 25:09

This is kind of the result I get out of otter sometimes. Otter day dot ai. When you're editing your stuff and it tries to be, it tries to helpful and it's almost like that person. If you ever had that person who just wants to be so helpful, they'll just do like, they just get in your way as you're trying to do. So you're like, hey, you know what I got this?

Jim Collison: 25:29

Oh I want to do this for you. No, I got this. It's just easier if I get it done. I was kind of having that experience with Copilot, which is just a GPT behind the scenes, a Microsoft-branded GPT, so. So this is one of those areas with AI you have to be really careful. It's not like writing code that's going to give you the exact same results every single time you may get because of the queries that you write and the order that you write them in.

Jim Collison: 25:56

So so you ask it a question, then you do a follow-up question, a follow-up question. The order in which you ask those questions may be just as important as the information itself. So if you took three operations and asked them all at once, you're going to you could get a different result than if you had three operations. Asking them, one, get a result. Two get a result. Three get a result. So be very careful and also test test If you're going to use this in any kind of product. This is these gimmicks of asking questions and stuff. This is kind of fun, but if you're going to, if you're going to turn this into any kind of podcasting, production stuff, whatever that is, you better test it a couple times. It takes twice or three or four times longer to do that. But if you're just going to write it once and think that query is going to come back the same every single time test, I would test it three or four or five times for sure.

Dave Jackson: 26:47

Well, craig from AI Goes to College, says generative AI is non-deterministic, that's a fancy term, so to give you different responses even with the exact same query. That's important to keep in mind. And then he also said earlier he said AI will definitely spot some BS from time to time. There's no doubt it's important to be skeptical and verify anything important. Yeah, it's even in chat GPT, I noticed when I was at the bottom. It's like, hey, sometimes we're wrong, so, like anything important, you should probably check. And I was like, yeah, that's a good thing. But somebody said one of those questions were thrown out is what do you think radio is going to be like in 20 years? I can honestly see this happening. Where you will get?

Dave Jackson: 27:29

First of all, I'm with Adam Curry. I think local news is an untapped area that used to have more emphasis and just doesn't anymore, area that used to have more emphasis and just doesn't anymore. I know when I look at the Akron paper online and then look at the Columbus paper online, it's the same thing, aside from maybe one or two stories. I was like, eh, but I can see in the future where some sort of news source will type up a paragraph, an AI voice will voice it and it will turn into a podcast and you'll just get four or five of these a day.

Dave Jackson: 28:06

It's weird, but I could just I'm like we're already there, it's just got to get better, and I was like I could see. It's one of those things where you kind of go all right, but what happens to personality? But I'm like I'm not saying it would replace everything, but I'm like that's available now. I just think somebody's going to start doing that. I mean, I don't know if this is going to pull this up or not. I'm going to hit play on this and we'll see where we're at.

Jim Collison: 28:30

And if you're an Akronite.

Dave Jackson: 28:31

Yeah, there is. Let me back up just a pinch. I announced that I I tried Kyle and Sheila in the Akron podcast and that so here are our two favorite AI anchors. To talk about the leaf removal schedule. All right, akron.

Jim Collison: 28:46

Fall is in full swing. There's our buddy, kyle.

Dave Jackson: 28:49

You know what?

Jim Collison: 28:49

that means Yep Leaves everywhere and if you're an Akronite you know that leaf pickup season can be well, let's just say, it can be a bit tricky.

Dave Jackson: 28:57

It is All right enough of that, but nonetheless it made it. It's weird they also if I had read that would have been a two-minute story Like, hey, if you need a link to what ward you're in, out at the website. But they made a whole thing about it. But I also announced oh my God, these people are fake.

Jim Collison: 29:16

When she said leaf pickup can be a boot and she said, bit, that's not what I thought she was going to say.

Dave Jackson: 29:24

Well, the other thing was interesting. At Pot Indy I'd have to go back and look. It was probably 55% female, maybe 60. And when they heard Kyle and Sheila, the first thing they said is like, is there an AI model that doesn't make the woman sound like an idiot? And it almost all the ones it is. It's Kyle leading and Sheila is the co-host going, but in the Leaf one, at least about halfway through, she'd be like oh, another thing you need to keep in mind don't park on the street because those machines need to come and suck up so they do switch. But it's almost always Kyle's in the lead when it first comes out, and it was.

Dave Jackson: 30:07

I never noticed it because I'm a middle-aged white guy and that's. We're invisible to that kind of stuff. But the females are like is there one where she doesn't sound like an idiot? And I was like oh man, that's some really good feedback. And I know you can kind of add things like hey, can you guys keep it on the short side, on the notebook LM side? I don't know how much they listen to you, but it was just something. I was like oh, that is true, sheila kind of sounds like she's just here to go. Wow, oh, so it's something to keep in mind.

Jim Collison: 30:37

Oh, so it's something to keep in mind. Well, as we progress along these lines with AI, the question, the ultimate question, we're going to have to answer is not what is love, but what is trust Like? What can we trust? And this has been, I mean, certainly this has been a line that has been blurred. This isn't new. But the tools, the accessibility tools for people to be able to clone or people to be able to reproduce, or for people to be able to fake, has never been better and it's only going to get better. And I think, where our brains are going to have to evolve, like and this is going to take some time, but as humans, we're going to have to evolve and figure out and maybe create some systems or something.

Jim Collison: 31:22

I don't have any answers to this, dave, but in a world where you can't trust anything, you can't trust what you're seeing. I mean, it's the matrix You're we're moving into. The matrix is what we're doing, and you can't trust anything. You can't trust what you see, you can't trust what you hear. How do you verify and validate? And that? I don't have an answer to that question, but we're going to have to figure that out Because, as we hear every time we talk about. Every time I play I've been doing this at work a lot lately because I cloned a bunch of voices I've been telling people internally hey, I've got some new tools that we can use. We want to be careful with them. Every single time somebody asks me how do we trust that? How do we know people aren't going to do terrible things with it? And they already have, and they already are. But trust is going to be important. I wish I had an answer to like oh yeah, use this technology and that'll work. I don't know. What are your thoughts, dave?

Dave Jackson: 32:19

Well, here's the thing. I'm going to try to do this without making it political. I'm talking about how we communicate, and one of the things that I'm kind of sad to see is there are a lot of people now going to blue sky, right, they're like hey, you're saying things I don't like, so I'm leaving, I'm taking my ball and I'm going home and I'm going to blue sky. That's fine. Why? Because everybody over there is going to say things I agree with, and I just think, as an educator, I'm like that's not a good strategy, because what happens then is everybody, when everybody is just blue or red, when you hear an idea that's not blue or red, you're like how can you even think that? What are you insane? And then it's not. That's not a good way to start a discussion. And so I was listening to Podcasting 2.0 today because there was some I don't even know I'm assuming it was a TV station where their candidate didn't win, and they were kind of like how did this even happen? And what I think people don't realize is if you just give one side of the story, the people that like that side of the story will watch and listen, but you're trying to convert the other side and they're not watching because it's that.

Dave Jackson: 33:32

And Dave Jones, the podcast sage, over at Podcasting 2.0, he said the thing that makes podcasting different, because mainstream media and also we'll throw in celebrities, like I don't know that a celebrity says, oh, I'm voting for so-and-so, that I go, oh well, if James from Metallica is voting for them, I'm going to vote. I don't think we care what celebrities think. And he said it's trust and it's truth and authenticity and that's really what podcasting is. And I was like, oh, can I? We were all talking like that's a bumper sticker. But when people trust you because you give them good content like Craig told me about Poecom, which is this kind of it does ChatBeat, gpt, it does Claude, it does a whole bunch of stuff. So if you want one place to go and I did and it saved me time and it worked and I went wow, this guy really knows what he's talking about. And so trust and authenticity are what makes podcasting. And it was interesting because this and I don't know where the clip came from, but they were just but we gave you the facts.

Dave Jackson: 34:38

And what mainstream media doesn't realize is we don't trust you anymore, like because there were things that you said at the beginning of the pandemic that by the end of the pandemic weren't true. They've been proven that what you said before was not true. And you never apologized If they had said hey, remember how we said if you took the juice, that you wouldn't get this. Apparently we were wrong on that. Then they just changed their tune Well, now you won't get as sick, okay, maybe you might like. And they never apologized. They never said, hey, we got that wrong. And if they had, then they would have A, it would be authentic and it'd be true.

Dave Jackson: 35:17

And so I think mainstream media has and I've heard everybody say this that this election was the podcast election. And again, I'm trying not to get political here, but just the fact that mainstream media and I'm going to pull. I'm going to go pull the clip because two years ago I said I think we can beat mainstream media at their own game and drop the mic, plant your flag. Yeah, we just did so. Is there any way to talk about this without being political?

Jim Collison: 35:42

No, it's a hard one to get. Well, you get. Listen, we all have I mean, even as individuals, we all have our own biases. We want those biases confirmed. We're more comfortable with that From an evolutionary standpoint. We want to hang out with people that are like us. Right, we want it. That's safety, fear and safety kind of thing. So we have an uphill battle on this. We want to. Dan Lefebvre says out in chat. He says, just like you have to be skeptical and verify prompts and the responses we get, we have to do the same skeptical verification of everything out there. That's exhausting. Like this is where, like I mean, as humans, we need to evolve differently. The trust but verify model in this case, we're just not built for that. It's we hold, and this is a number I'm going to make up. I I would say 85 or 90 of the things we believe to be true we act upon without verifying.

Jim Collison: 36:39

Because if you had to verify every single thing every day, like what if, in the chat room, you're sitting there having to listen to every single thing the two of us say critically for everything, like that's just exhausting you stop coming to the show. You want to hold lots of things to be true, just so that you can focus, use and focus that energy to do other productive things. If you're verifying everything every single day, I mean that's just a lot, that's a lot of work. Are we going to have to start doing that? Maybe Like, and then I think we, then I think we have to learn to value each other better.

Jim Collison: 37:19

I think Coach Dave said this out there as well. We've tended to build these us against them walls. That's out there on both sides. Listen both, everything. Oh yeah, where two or more are gathered, there will be conflict, there will be conflict. So we've got to figure out some ways to, in our dialogue, in our conversation, to value the individual first and listen, listen through. That Doesn't mean we always necessarily have to agree, but I think sometimes we're just shutting down the other opinion without, without thinking all the way through.

Jim Collison: 37:53

I mean I'll give you a good example and I'll put myself. I'll risk this, dave, I'm not a big flat earth guy. Right, there's a lot of folks who are and I just want to shut that. Like you say that, like these things show up on Facebook and I say things like how can you be any dumber? Or that's the most idiotic thing I've ever. Okay, going that approach to it, true or not, automatically sets everybody on the defense, as opposed to maybe approaching it like, well, that's an opinion, okay, like, let's think about that a little bit. What makes you think that? What do you think about those kinds of things?

Jim Collison: 38:30

So I think the way we approach that a conversation like that is and listen, I yeah, the way we approach a conversation like that I think is important how we start the dialogue, because if you start it by name-calling it's, it goes downhill. If you start it by saying, well, tell me more, like give me some reasons why, and then you can. I don't know, I don't have, like I said, I don't have an answer, I'm just grappling. We're gonna have to do something to figure this out, both from how we respond to each other and how we handle ai here in the future, it's gonna do a lot of things. I have no idea. Like, am I dreaming right now? Maybe I'm in the matrix right now. Maybe all of this?

Dave Jackson: 39:10

I'm just a battery. You took the red pill, man. Yeah, well, talking about that, that, I'm not a huge Bill Maher fan. I mean I love him when he does New Rule on his show on HBO. So if you ever go to HBO and type in Bill Maher, new Rule, every one of those I'm like, oh, preach on.

Dave Jackson: 39:28

But he interviewed Ben Shapiro. So Ben Shapiro about as far right as you can get Bill Maher pretty left, but he will say he's not down with the wokeness that like there's being a liberal and then there's being woke. He's like I'm not woke, I'm liberal. And so I'm like, wait, bill Maher had Ben Shapiro on. I'm like that we're not even going to talk about that because you're way right and but they tried to find things that and it was interesting. Like I didn't realize Ben Shapiro was like this super graduate, early kind of kid apparently, and is I mean he comes across as kind of a know-it-all, and part of that is because he knows a lot of stuff, comes across as kind of a know-it-all, and part of that is because he knows a lot of stuff, and so I got to learn about him and likewise. And then they got into talking about Israel. Well, ben is Jewish, like, as he says, a funny hat wearing Jew, and so they talked about things that maybe they didn't quite agree on, but they wanted to hear the other person's point of view, and it was so refreshing to hear somebody have what they used to call a dialogue, like they could put this into like the Smithsonian, like back in the day people used to have dialogues, click the button to hear it, so that was. It was pretty interesting.

Dave Jackson: 40:46

So, but what was interesting about it, though? That just shows you kind of the space we're at. I put a link to this on Facebook and I said, hey, here's two people that both sides, different sides of the fence and they're actually having a conversation. And somebody commented and said these people aren't different at all because they're both white and they're both male and they're both white. And I was like oh wait, hold on. And they were kind of like saying, dave, you missed the ball. Like these people aren't different at all. I'm like no one is an atheist, left-leaning person and one is a Jewish. So far, right, yes, they are different. But it was interesting that people were like time out, you missed it, they're not different enough.

Jim Collison: 41:27

And I was like easy guys yeah Well, it's easy to get a couple trigger words and then make giant assumptions and then disregard right words. And then make giant assumptions and then disregard right. That's kind of where it's just like well, how do you, if I'm gonna have a conversation with somebody, within a few words you can kind of figure a few things out and then all of a sudden you're starting to categorize in your mind like, oh, this person is a. You just rattled off some labels, right? Yeah, this blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Okay, I'm gonna automatically go on the defense or I'm gonna automatically go on the offense. We're gonna have to figure out a way to slow that process down and say, well, tell me, like, tell me more about, about this, let's have a dialogue maybe, in all this time ai is going to save us, we can actually have dialogue.

Jim Collison: 42:24

Maybe that's the solution, since we don't have to create show notes anymore. Maybe we can actually have dialogue. Maybe that's the solution, since we don't have to create show notes anymore. Maybe we can actually have conversations. Maybe that's the answer.

Dave Jackson: 42:31

Well, craig has this great point.

Dave Jackson: 42:32

He goes three magic words. That would avoid a lot of nonsense and conflict is help me understand. Just pointing out to somebody when I had the thing with the podcast movement and I misgendered somebody, I called them she, when it should have been they, or something like that, and I started off the paragraph saying look, I don't know anything about this. I'm really new. And it was interesting because they went to Twitter and just said all sorts of nasty things about me and I'm like hey, yes, you're right, I am a buffoon, I am an idiot. I said at the beginning of this, I don't know anything about this. And when my answer was, can we get on Zoom and help me understand this? They didn't know what to do because I'm supposed to fight back and say nasty things about them. And I was just like hey, like, and I had three people take me up and get me on Zoom and before I get speaking of, ai goes to college, craig just threw us a super chat. So there we go. Thank you for that. Appreciate that. I tell you what. Let's do this and when we come back I don't know if this is, yeah, we'll play the jingle. You'll see when we get there, because there's stuff that's coming up.

Dave Jackson: 43:37

Dr asked a question a while ago that I want to hit on, but we want to thank our awesome supporters. You can go over to askthepodcastcoachcom, slash awesome and become one of those, and this show is brought to you by theschoolofpodcastingcom, where I teach you how to talk in a pukey radio voice. No, actually, what I do is there's coaches, there's coaches, there's me, there's courses and unlimited coaching and a really awesome community. You can use the coupon code coach when you sign up and remember that's joining worry-free. There's a 30-day money-back guarantee and we use PodPage. If you want to check out PodPage, go to trypodpagecom, and if you want to learn PodPage, go to learnpodpagecom.

Dave Jackson: 44:16

Now, by the way, let me take a quick. We launched this week and maybe we'll talk about this when we come back too. You now have the ability to make an audience survey that is so cool based on questions from the one and only Tom Webster from the book the Audience is Listening a little guide to building a big podcast, because he made questions back in the day of Edison Research and he kind of revamped those and put them into his book and we went to Tom and said, hey, can we use the questions from the book? And Tom was cool enough to go. Yeah, because Tom's all about making good podcasts. So that's now part of PodPage. You just have to be on the pro plan. So there's basic pro and everybody basically uses pro anyway, and then elite. So check it out.

Dave Jackson: 44:58

Tripodpagecom and we're streaming right now using Ecamm. So if you go to askthepodcastcoachcom, slash Ecamm, thepodcastcoachcom slash Ecamm and Ecamm has two Ms because it's good. And if you need more, jim Cullison, I threw a weird curveball today. I said hey, from homegadgetgeekscom instead of theaverageguytv, just to see if the wheels would fall off. But it didn't. I threw him a curveball.

Jim Collison: 45:20

The internet still worked.

Dave Jackson: 45:21

That's it. Check him out. And it is time now for the wheel. Oh names. And the bad news is I can't read this anymore because it's on my teleprompter. But max trescott, we got chris stone from castaheadnet con ross brand. Who's gonna win? We spin it around and the winner is oh ah, that would have been really interesting. It is randy Black from Bible Bites. I thought it was going to be AI goes to college.

Jim Collison: 45:52

I was going to say that looked like a setup.

Dave Jackson: 45:54

I was going to like people are going to call fix on this. It's AI.

Jim Collison: 45:58

They generated this whole show using AI.

Dave Jackson: 46:01

That's it. So yeah, bible Bites Links will be in the show notes if you're looking for it's like kind of Sunday school, but it's on your phone and it's fun and entertaining. And check it out, biblebytes. By the way, if you're listening to this and not watching it, bytes is B-Y-T-E-S. So thanks, randy, for being an awesome supporter. We deeply appreciate that. And hey, if this show saves you time, if it saves you money, if you really like that, actually if you really like the teleprompt or the prompt we did today, sure you could throw us some money or become an awesome supporter. But really you want to go to AI Goes to College because that's where it came from and for all to see all of our awesome supporters. Go to askthepodcastcoachcom slash awesome and you should become an awesome supporter. It makes you feel good is what I hear.

Dave Jackson: 46:48

But DR asked a question and I love it so much, thank you. Oh, by the way, speaking of DR, if I do this and then we do this and we do this, oh, you have to turn the volume up. Dave Works much better. There we go, or one of these. What's the deal? Come on Rodecaster, there we go. Dr gave us a $20 super chat. Thank you for the education every Saturday. We appreciate that. But she also gave us a cool question and I love it because it is Spotify being Spotify.

Dave Jackson: 47:16

She says any thoughts on Spotify starting to position itself as a YouTube competitor, and to this I want to say and now it's time for a power rant Mark my words. In about two or three weeks we're going to find out. This is not as cool as you think it is. Now, why am I saying that? Because it came from Spotify and Spotify has said you can make money on Spotify. Everybody come on and everybody's like oh my gosh, they're shooting across the bow. Youtube has some pretty high. I think you have to have a thousand subscribers and X amount of watch time and whatever they have at YouTube. That's pretty hard to get. You're like well, you got to do it a while Spotify. I thought I heard James say today, and so I could be wrong. I thought I heard him say you had to have 10,000 hours a month to be and you had to have an insane number of it's. Basically, they took the bar to make money and raised it a bunch, and so Spotify is like hey, come make money over here as long as you're a super huge show is like hey, come make money over here as long as you're a super huge show. And oh and same thing, it sounds good because, oh my God, wait, they're going to pay audio podcast, not just video podcast. This is everybody should be going to spot. Oh well, hold on. So there's an asterisk that we need to dig out. And so I see it.

Dave Jackson: 48:43

I wish Spotify would just be Spotify. Also, it's not Spotify for podcasters anymore, of course. It's now Spotify for creators, and I've been saying I don't think Spotify really likes podcasting, I don't think they like OpenRSS, and to this I now give Exhibit D they got rid of the word podcast out of their name. So it's not that I'm not a Spotify fan. I love their music service.

Dave Jackson: 49:08

Every Monday I run to my computer to see what stuff it's going to recommend and I love making playlists and as a music service it's great. I just hate when they come out with these big headlines like, hey, spotify will do your laundry, and you're like that's amazing. And then you're like, if you give us $50,000 a week and you only do whites and not colors and you use Tide, whatever, there's always an asterisk with Spotify. So I am withholding judgment, but I heard James and Sam talking about today on Pod News Weekly and I just remember hearing the criteria and I was like nobody's going to meet that criteria. So, as much as they're like you can make money on Spotify, I'm like, yeah, if you're Joe Rogan and Jordan Harbinger and people that are getting thousands and thousands of downloads, I don't know, jim, did you look into this at all? Did you hear anything?

Jim Collison: 49:59

Well, I love your rant, I love how you're going to suspend judgment, but you were judging the whole time you were having the conversation. No, it's all right. Yeah Well, listen, there was a day when YouTube had requirements on what you remember. You'd have to sign up and you have had so many hours of things before they would let you do live streaming and some of those. So it's not unprecedented what spotify is doing. They're just they're trying to. They don't want to play. I don't think. It's not they. They don't like podcasters. They don't like. They don't like onesie, twosie podcasters. They don't like the folks who come and make six episodes and walk away. They don't like folks who get 10 downloads. They don't that. That's not their target audience, and saying the words not like is probably not the right way.

Dave Jackson: 50:47

Right.

Jim Collison: 50:47

Saying it's not their target audience is probably the right way, right.

Dave Jackson: 50:50

Bingo.

Jim Collison: 50:51

So so let me correct myself on that one, because they're trying to be a media company and I think they want they just want volume. That's really what they want, and they're not going after volume in a large number of people. They're going after volume in a small number of people who have a lot of influence, lot of influence, and so they're kind of they're looking at the I'm sure they're looking at the YouTube model and can you imagine how much YouTube pays in bandwidth alone for people uploading and viewing for nothing stuff that's out there and I know they're. They're monetizing it with ads and those kinds of things.

Jim Collison: 51:29

But I think Spotify is trying to come at this approach from a much more larger influencer standpoint to say yeah, let's just do this with those who are actually this is going to sound demeaning to some, but who are actually doing something like, who are actually have an audience and we're going to define you got to define the audience in some way and so they're setting these limits on this and they're trying to build scale on media. It's leaving the average guy out, I think for the most part since that's my brand, I'll use that term and that's disappointing to some.

Dave Jackson: 52:07

Chris says Spotify wants to sell ads to companies, not pay creators. They're famous for launching things and killing them and buying companies and killing them. Well, here's the great-. So is Google, though, yeah.

Jim Collison: 52:18

For sure. Oh man, google's For sure.

Dave Jackson: 52:27

Yeah, it says eligibility. This is from podnewsnet. Eligibility for the Spotify partner program requires you to use Spotify for creators, so Anchor to host your podcast or megaphone in some cases, and you need at least 12 episodes. So there goes a big chunk of people, especially from the Spotify side, but maybe they'll do more than seven episodes now that they know. But you need 2000 unique Spotify users in the last month Spotify users. So I'm guessing that means people that click play would be my guess. Guessing that means people that click play would be my guess. And 10,000 streamed hours in the last month. That's a chunk. Youtube, by comparison, needs 1,000 all-time subscribers, but 4,000 streamed hours in the last year. So 4,000 hours in a year versus 10,000 hours in a month.

Dave Jackson: 53:10

And that's where I'm like well, they're just going. And I get it. Look, if only deal with the biggest shows, it's less paperwork and the same amount of money versus doing 2 000 podcasters that do a wee bit of downloads. I get it, I understand it. I just like yeah, I just to me. I love the headline like hey, come over here, make some money. You gotta read this, the small print. I'm like, ah, here we go.

Jim Collison: 53:33

They could probably do better off by inviting they know the numbers Right, like putting out a general press release about something like this when it's a 1% thing. They probably could have just approached those Because they're going to. If this is successful, they'll probably lower those numbers Much easier to set them high, set the standards high and then lower them as you go than to set a really low standard and try to raise it right. So that's true, super, I mean right.

Dave Jackson: 54:01

So that's a really good lower, because if you lower it, you're the hero to the little guy like canva. I'm still pissed at canva. I had, they had, an affiliate program and I would link to them and I earned commission and then, because I don't have 10,000 people on YouTube, they kicked me out. I'm like, yeah, but I have your target audience, I like your product. I emailed them. It's like, nope, that's our policy. And I'm like, oh, as somebody who used to teach, customer service policy is a really bad word that you only want to pull it out when you're you've ran out of other reasons.

Jim Collison: 54:35

But yeah it's so and dave, we kind of need spotify or someone to give youtube a run for their money money, that's true we're in a monopoly standpoint right now.

Jim Collison: 54:46

I think about ed sullivan over there sonic cupcake, they do. He's a producer for a cigar podcast. They're d Dave Groffalo in Cigar Authority. They're getting, I mean, youtube is forcing them off in some regards and to the point where they're not allowing them to live stream via YouTube. And Ed and I were talking about this and we're like, okay, where do you go? Like where, seriously, where do you go? You could, but I mean, yeah, but Rumble's.

Dave Jackson: 55:16

Yeah, it's.

Jim Collison: 55:17

Yeah, I mean, is it really a competitor to YouTube? Yeah, how about X? Is that okay? Well, you could. What about Facebook? Oh, they got their own, they've got their own problems.

Jim Collison: 55:26

There's no clear second option. There's no real competition for YouTube in a lot of ways and let me be careful on that I know some of you are going to put in the chat well, yeah, this and that, yeah, sure, those things are all true, but really, at the end of the day, youtube owns the video play, video storage and streaming market in a lot of ways. Twitch would be maybe another one of those, although you start looking at some of their terms of service, and maybe the podcast that Ed does is not going to work on those platforms either, and so there are always solutions. But we do kind of need someone to keep YouTube in check, and so, whether it's Spotify or somebody else coming along I mean, google's gotten in trouble with some antitrust stuff lately, yeah, and maybe some of that will help, but we don't want them to be the dominant leader, the number one, always. We need some competition right In the phone market.

Jim Collison: 56:33

You have iPhone and Android. You need a couple players in there to make the competition work. So I know you don't like spotify, but we need someone to give youtube a little bit of a run to just to keep them honest yeah, dr says youtube is way overdue.

Dave Jackson: 56:49

They've been a monopoly for too long yeah, you know yeah craig says, can't argue with jim's conclusion.

Dave Jackson: 56:54

For the most part, youtube is all the really the only game in town. The one thing also that that article on Spotify from James didn't mention is how much are they paying people? Because I just asked perplexityai I said how much does Spotify pay a musician per stream? Spotify pay a musician per stream and according to Perplexity, which is quoting Ditto Music, $0.03 to $0.005. So somewhere between $3 and $5 CPM and I'm like, well, that's about normal, for if you're getting ads and such, so it should be interesting.

Dave Jackson: 57:34

Approximately 70% of their revenue goes to the rights holders, that's, artists, labels and publisher. 30% is retained by Spotify. So when you hear Spotify, remember Spotify is only getting about 30% of that. And how much of that 30% are they going to give you? I guess we'll see, but that's the other question that we're missing. Dan says I always thought Vimeo had better video hosting than YouTube, but it's not as popular because, well, it's not free. And, coach Dave, youtube is on the losing side of history if they continue growing their screening slash censorship behaviors. Yeah, that's censorship. There's a fun topic we could get deplatformed over.

Jim Collison: 58:11

I think we covered enough of that in the first half of the show. Let's do easy topics that we can all agree on.

Dave Jackson: 58:16

Well, here's a fun one. Let me share my screen again, Because I saw this and I was like, ooh. Sometimes I've written emails in the heat of being mad at somebody or whatever, and that usually doesn't end well. Got me kicked out of a band once and this person asked is it illegal? So, first things first, Jim and I are not lawyers. Is it illegal to discuss this on a podcast? Well, that's a great topic. First of all, that made me click on that.

Dave Jackson: 58:43

My best friend is going through a messy divorce as her husband has been cheating on her and ended it when she found out. We're going to make a podcast about the whole process, her feelings and what he did, their kids, etc. Yes, people probably won't listen, but at least it'll be therapeutic for her, I'm sure, If we don't mention his name and only give facts. Is it illegal to discuss this? We're in Australia and so I saw that I was like I say have the conversation. I don't know that I would record it. That's just as therapeutic Like have the conversation, let her vent.

Dave Jackson: 59:20

But the thing you don't realize especially the word there that jumped out at me is kids. Kids didn't have anything to do with a divorce. That's between you and your partner and I'm like there's no way, Because, remember, when you're talking crap about somebody, that's somebody's dad and that guy might be an absolute piece of horse pucky, but it's still somebody's dad and that's not cool. And so for me I would say, look, if you want to record it, I wouldn't, but you could record it and then after the divorce, when things have been settled, like, wait six months after the divorce, and if you want to release it, I would use a pseudonym for everybody involved. So the kids are now Huey, Dewey and Louie, and your name is Cheryl, when it's really Tina, and his name is Butthead, when it was really Steve. But people can. It's to me. I just was like, oh, that sounds like a bad idea. I don't know. What do you think, Jim? It was a different question. It was a question we had not asked before.

Jim Collison: 1:00:26

That's true. I don't think we've ever talked about this. All things are discussable. Not all things should be discussed, and so should you. The question is it illegal? You've got to, you've really have to consult your local or whatever. Thinking about, I mean, there's no international podcast police. It's going to. You're going to be able to publish it and get it in most places, depending on how you do it and some of those kinds of things. For some of the reasons you just stated it's. I think this is more of a preference question than it is a legal illegal. And then what is that doing? I mean, I don't know, maybe it does have, would have a positive effect, and maybe at the end it'd be a Hallmark special and they'd get back together and everything would be great, right, you never know. But do you? I don't know. There's just some things probably shouldn't be discussed, and that's probably one of them.

Dave Jackson: 1:01:20

Well, randy says what happens when the kids hear this. In a few years I met some people at Podcast Movement and it's a husband and wife team talking about marriage being. When I say transparent, like way transparent about their sex life, discussing techniques and like, did she just? Yep, she's wow, and she puts what, where, what and I just a whole, and they have a little baby and I'm like they better tell that kid when they're about four, never listen to this show, which, unfortunately, when you say that to a kid, makes them want to go listen to it even more. But was just like that's gonna somewhere in the future. There's an awkward thanksgiving dinner coming in in that family. I was like, but yeah, you know.

Dave Jackson: 1:02:04

You never know, unless they always talk that kind of transparency about what mommy does to daddy and how he likes it. I was like, oh, that that could be awkward in awkward. I'm just picturing the kid ripping off his headphones, going my ears. So yeah, I would not do that. Let's see if you. This is well, I probably have. Yeah, apparently I do. Do you have?

Dave Jackson: 1:02:29

Somebody asked the keyword titles and I think this was in Reddit many moons ago and because someone said, hey, you should put keywords in your episode titles while they still make sense, right, Don't just go whatever. Naked people, big boobs, when the show is about, you know, tennis shoes or something. But I found a tool because I Googled, like free SEO tools, and the one that came up is Mangools, which is a weird name. Who would like? Because you know, when I think SEO, the first thing that came to my mind was Mangools. It's M-A-N-G-O-O-L-S Because, like ghoul, I think Halloween, Okay, but anyway, I've been using them for about a month and every week they send me a thing to let me know if my traffic is going up or down, and blah, blah, blah. But they have a. They're like it's like many SEO tools, you get X amount of uses per month and blah, blah blah. So if you're just playing, so if you go to supportthisshowcom, slash manghouls which, as soon as I see this because this has been sitting in the queue here forever that means Dave has a affiliate link for it probably. But they do give you their free stuff, actually does give you stuff that's like somewhat useful. So that is something. Oh, that is something I have been doing. I will put a link in the show notes that I talked about this man probably six months ago. I use Fathom Stats nothing against Google Analytics, but I just don't need that much detail and so I started using Fathom and they have a thing called a builder and just in the man maybe week and a half that I've been doing this because I talked about it like hey, you can actually see where your traffic's coming from, because Google doesn't do that as well as they used to because something with cookies, blah, blah, blah. But you can go in and use this site and you can also do this in Google Analytics. It's just a UTM campaign builder and so you would put in the address where you want people to go, so learnschoolofpodcastingcom. The source might be your newsletter, it might be the show notes, it might be the website, whatever it is, Then your medium Again, this could be is this an email?

Dave Jackson: 1:04:44

Some of these kind of overlap a little bit, but I've been doing like campaign. I'll put like the episode number and then maybe the content is, or somewhere in here is a keyword. I thought something like that. But if I were to say, hey, I'm going to Home, Gadget Geeks, oh my, oh, typing in front of people, so much fun, Gadgetgeekscom. And so maybe this would be like I could put show notes or whatever, and then maybe this is what's your next episode.

Dave Jackson: 1:05:09

Any idea what the number is? 629. 629. Right, and if I wanted to, I could just do that. Maybe it was about robo vacuums or something Right. And then down here it makes this really nasty link. But if you're putting this on Twitter, it's going to shrink it, LinkedIn is going to shrink it. And then you can go into your stats and, oops, use Fathom and see where people are coming from, Because that's our whole thing we're like, well, we don't know what's working. Come on, don't be. Where is here we go. So if we go to the bottom and man, I love Ecamm, but the whole 8 million windows everywhere.

Dave Jackson: 1:05:50

So I'm starting to see, I think if we go to source Wait, let me switch this out, let's go, okay, yeah, so I can see where I got. I was sponsoring pod news for a while. Substack's my newsletter Pod page is who knows where. Well, I know what that is. In my signature right now this is for the year I got a whopping 11 views, but that's 11 views that I wouldn't have had if I didn't have a link to my show and my and then FOP is future of podcasting. So that's the show I do with Daniel, so I must've done something over there.

Dave Jackson: 1:06:23

But if you're wondering where your traffic is coming from, I'll put a link to that in show notes and it's one of those things that it's I've just. It just takes discipline, cause there are times when you want to like, oh, I'm going to post this on Twitter and now I'm going wait, I got to go over here and fill this thing out. It takes all of 10 seconds. And then you kind of I'm like, oh, yeah, I should have been doing this all along. I have a much better idea where my traffic is coming from. So do you ever play with those things, jim?

Jim Collison: 1:06:51

I use the Google Analytics platform for it and I just really do the basics. So the Gallup stuff. We have a team that takes care of that, which is nice. We have people much smarter than me tracking all of those things. But on my own podcast I would look at trending pages to say, okay, what did get ranked high? It's showing up. Sometimes I ask why, like, and I never really fully understand why that page is ranking so well. But that's okay. So then I may optimize the page a bit to get links in there affiliate links or whatever to see if I can drive some traffic that way. It almost never works in that kind of form or fashion. Some traffic that way? It almost never works in that kind of form or fashion. But that's kind of how I use the. I spend a little time with AdSense, kind of saying the nickel a day that I make on HomeGadgetGeekscom or TheAverageGuytv is really where it's at. Homegadgetgeekscom redirects to my pod page just for so folks know, and then TheAverageGuytv is the host site. So I make a nickel a day, sometimes three cents, sometimes seven, but it's about a nickel a day. So you look at it and I spend a little time like is traffic up Is traffic down. Did I do anything? Oftentimes you look at those numbers and you're like I have no idea why there's a spike in this. You can't figure it out. Good on you for those who are very technical and you're using that to its fullest extent.

Jim Collison: 1:08:19

There's a whole industry that has grown up around SEO that's about to be disrupted. I think this search, I think search SEO is going to be disrupted by AI. I think five years from now, people aren't going to use Search anymore. They're going to just go to Copilot or ChatGPT or whatever it turns out being. And Search and AI is the same, basically the same thing Doesn't make any sense to continue Like now. I don't. When I want to know something, I mean, yeah, I could go and, you know, put it into google and get a whole bunch of links. Why not just ask chat gpt how to do this kind of thing? Now it's not perfect, like if I want to know how to fix my dryer, still better to go to youtube and find a video of someone doing it. But I think eventually all that stuff is going to influence the, the ai engines as well, and you'll be able to get that kind of stuff there.

Dave Jackson: 1:09:16

Well, craig from AI goes to college at Pot Indy was talking about how he had an otter. He stocks a pond on his property and they got an otter and it was killing its fish and he's like I don't want to shoot it because I'm not that good a shot and I want to kill it humanely. Blah, blah, blah. Long story short. He went to chat GPT and said like how do I get rid of an otter? And they said go get the like a pie pan that's I don't know if it's aluminum or tin or whatever it is, but it's bright and hang it up. It'll make noise and the light kind of freaks them out. And basically you hang up a bunch of pie pans and it scares away the otter. And he said it worked like a charm and he got that answer from ChatGPT. So I'm with you. I think search is going to be.

Jim Collison: 1:09:58

It's still blind. Yeah, still blind, for sure, yeah.

Dave Jackson: 1:10:00

So DR has a question. He says have you discovered any replacement for chartable charts? And I personally don't understand the fixation charts. But on the screen, if you go to schoolofpodcastingcom slash mpdaniel over at podgagement, previously known as my Podcast Reviews it's not live yet but he's got it. He's showing a quick video of how charts are coming to. That I get it. That if I was 57 in some obscure category and now I'm 55, I can see where I'm going up.

Dave Jackson: 1:10:38

But I don't to me when I go back to what's your way, if somebody goes oh, I want to be number one in engineering or education or just there's so much. I mean there is a thing especially I learned at PodIndy and just the recent couple of weeks so much of podcasting has nothing to do with microphones and downloads and content. It has to do with mindset. It really does. And it's interesting seeing Like I talked to a guy at PodIndy and I'm happy because he joined the school of podcasting and he likes talking about sales to his buddies and he recorded quite a few episodes but hadn't released any of them and so I'm going to kind of I was explaining it's really not that hard.

Dave Jackson: 1:11:27

He thought it was, but I said so what's your why? And he's like, well, it's kind of fun because I hang out talking sales with my friends and I go well, that might be your wine. He said, yeah, that might be it. He goes, I just like doing it and I go well, congratulations, I go. You haven't even released your podcast yet and it's successful. You're doing what you love to do. You're talking sales with your buddies. I go now, if because he's editing them, and I'm like, well, that's great, because a podcast, yes, it is a conversation, but it's a conversation with the boring parts removed, and so there are times I think that your show is successful, and because you're using somebody else's why you think it's not successful. But it was interesting. He's like, yeah, I guess I am. And I'm like, yeah, you're getting what you want. You're talking sales with your friends. So it's the chartable thing, the listen notes thing. I see that so often. Now, let's talk about that, jim, maybe I need to change my mind.

Dave Jackson: 1:12:30

To me, the whole listen notes thing is, I've pointed out that, like congratulations, like I'm a, this is probably, we're probably a point, we're probably a top 1% because we're beating shows from 2012 about WordPress and we're killing that show about Knight Rider from 2017. And so we're beating a lot of dead shows to where I go. Well, that's a bogus stat. But is it a bogus stat Because if we're at the top like I know the school of podcasting is top 0.5%? Like I'm at the top of the top, I'm like, okay, great, but everybody else is being measured against the same bogus criteria, so does that mean that criteria is good? Or is it like because to me, I'm like this is crap. Look at me, I'm beating people that don't podcast.

Dave Jackson: 1:13:12

I mean, steve Stewart was my favorite. Steve hadn't put out a podcast in seven years but was still in like the top 5%. And I was like I give you exhibit A, but it just seems like everybody's using this and I've always said, well, you're either using it because you don't know that it's a crap stat or, b, you're using it to kind of as a marketing tool and maybe not as an evil genius like, oh, they aren't aware that this is a crappy stat, which is kind of what I always put it as. That like okay, or you're trying to pull the wool over the eyes of the uninformed and I'm like that's not a nice thing to do. But it just seems like I'm like, well, if we're all using the same crappy criteria, maybe it's not crappy criteria. And I was like you know what Jim might have a take on this, because he deals with stats and surveys and such A little bit.

Jim Collison: 1:14:03

Well, let me challenge you on this. Kind of comes out in the way we start the conversation. I think this goes back to the earlier conversation from the show just a half hour ago, 45 minutes ago. There's two ways to approach that. Hey, my, I'm top 1% in listener notes and you could say to the person well, that's crap, that's crap stat. I'll just use your words that's a crap stat.

Dave Jackson: 1:14:27

It is a crap stat.

Jim Collison: 1:14:29

Well, I know you could say that, right, or you could say, well, okay, that's's, let's talk a little before we proceed. Let's talk a little bit about the way that they calculate their stat and let's include some of the things and I think you can still say all the same things that you're being compared to older podcasts that are gone, it's what it takes into account all of the podcasts that have ever been over time that the top 1% may not mean as much because of those things. That's a different way of entering the conversation than starting with. That's a crap stat.

Jim Collison: 1:15:10

Right. And so wondering again, wondering if it's all, how we position to start in a way that does not immediately start to divide or start to call Because you're calling them. I mean by calling it crap, you're calling it names, right? You're like that's. I mean, how can you be so dumb? Those guys are idiots over there, right?

Jim Collison: 1:15:33

We've heard all this mudslinging before in various ways, but, assuming with the person or whoever we're talking to, or however we approach it, say, well, it may not be, depending on what you're looking for, that may not be a stat that fulfills the criteria of what you're trying to do. What are you trying to do? And so you're asking the question of what are you trying to do with that stat, as opposed to, oh, they're crap. So that would be, I mean just initially, just an initial thought. It may be one of those things. We but we all have the hosts. You know what. We all have those things that we're tired of like. Oh, not again, stop talking about that. I've said this a thousand times, I know it to be true, so, anyways, that's. Those would be my thoughts.

Dave Jackson: 1:16:20

Well, dr says when she brings this up, someone will bring up the no longer active show serial to where I kind of want to go. Yeah, joe Rogan, mark, you know what I mean. It's just one of the things. There's always the one outliner. But shame on me, jim. I said we were top, probably 5%. Well, this is 2.5%.

Jim Collison: 1:16:40

With a ListenNote score of 37,.

Dave Jackson: 1:16:42

The School of Podcasting is a top 0.5% with a Listen score of 50. So I'm going to put that on my business card. I don't know, it's just one of those things where I'm like if everybody else is going to use that, maybe I should start using the same thing and go, okay, well, they're a top 10%, I'm top 0.5%, so yay. So I don't know, I just to me it works.

Jim Collison: 1:17:04

Well, if everybody. You know, this is the we call this grade inflation with education, right, where if everybody's getting an A, then A's don't matter that much anymore. Now you're talking about the difference between, let's say, an A is 90% to 100%, right, and everybody's in that. Well, now you're talking about the differences between. What's the difference between a 92 and a 94? Well, that, statistically, is pretty tight, right. So, yes, when we think about listener notes and we think about those percentages and if everybody said they're in the top 2.5, okay, yeah, it waters down, kind of waters down that stat. But is it wrong? It is a stat and people do disclose that, hey, this came from listener notes and we can maybe mentally discount that when we hear it. But if they want, what does it hurt for them to feel good about that stat? This is one of those things I think sometimes we just were kill joys and somebody says, hey, I'm in the top one percent, that feels good, and we just immediately go right for the crotch just trying to punch them right there, and so I.

Dave Jackson: 1:18:14

I don't know. I don't think it's that bad. Jeff C says I have a podcast on mainly Pinterest tips. Haven't done it for over three years and I'm at a top 1.5%.

Jim Collison: 1:18:26

Yeah, well, if you're consulting or you're talking to people, I think you can approach the conversation of like, well, okay, let's talk about what that stat really means and why are we using it. Listen, if a keynote speaker gets up and says, hey, my podcast is in the top five percent or two percent, and then you can, you could start thinking in your mind, okay, well, everybody's, it's great, good for you. But you know, do you stand up in the crowd and go? That's.

Dave Jackson: 1:18:56

But that's crap. I I was tempted when I ran a room at pod fest. I was at. I was running a room at pod fest and this woman introduced herself and said I'm a top one percent podcaster and I was. I just was like in the back of the room so I did not well, well, we run.

Jim Collison: 1:19:15

Well, listen, we really run. I mean and maybe I can only speak, maybe this is a United States perspective right now, so this may not be a global perspective, but we really we have gotten so afraid of failing or of being subpar or being average. I was just talking to somebody about this the other day, about LinkedIn, and, oh my gosh, if you follow anybody on LinkedIn, it is literally just ad after ad. It's just personal ads, personal ads after personal ads, and some of the groups that I run for the community that I manage, I had to shut off. I had to turn on post approval for every single post because all I was getting was ads. Like we weren't dialoguing in the, we weren't having chat anymore, it was just people advertising.

Jim Collison: 1:20:04

And there's so much fear of being average Like I can't, I can't, I can't survive it if it's not the best, the most effective, the top 1%, and I kind of I'm wore out on that. Like you know what, this afternoon I'm going to do a lot of nothing. Listen, I've had a very long week that concluded very difficult last night, and it's okay if I don't, if I'm not max productivity on a Saturday or a Sunday, right, and just let it be, just let's. I'm super proud of our chat room in a lot of ways because they come every week. We have great conversations, is it? Are we, dave? Do we get hundreds of thousands of downloads? Would Spotify pick us up? Probably not, but I don't care. I like I keep showing up on saturday mornings because I like the people that are here. That's good enough for me. Are we a c? We might be a c minus most, most, hey, we're, we're top 2.5 but that's that's, that's crap.

Dave Jackson: 1:21:08

You can do that uh, applying the logic to history, dan says from uh, based on a true story podcastcom how many musicians haven't made new music for a long time but they're still in the top percent of listen to? Well, that's true. It's also radio's fault. Radio keeps playing god bless them really. Any song on back in black I do not need to hear ever again. I've heard them all to death but you're biased.

Jim Collison: 1:21:33

because you listen to the oldie radio stations, you're probably not going over to the ones the kids listen to, right? So, you're a little, you're probably in your own echo chamber from a music standpoint.

Dave Jackson: 1:21:44

Yeah, that's true. But even that when they play new music they'll get a new song and like, they play it to death. I'm like, is there not another? They do to death, I'm like is there not another?

Jim Collison: 1:21:54

they do, they know they definitely, they definitely are. Our 80s radio station plays the same, and I'll have to talk to eric k johnson about this, because he's the radio station's like hey, can we get a few new songs in there? Like it doesn't have to be, love is a battlefield and right and yeah, name any other 80s song that they play all the time.

Dave Jackson: 1:22:14

Yeah, don't get me started on radio, that's yeah. If you want to watch a really interesting thing and when I watch this I'm always like podcasting it's called Corporatefm. If you're on Amazon Prime you can watch it and it's just the history of radio and how they ruined it basically and how there's really nothing we can do as people to get it back, even though it's the people's airwaves. It's all greed and caca and poo and all that other fun stuff. But well, jim, what's coming up on Home Gadget Geeks?

Jim Collison: 1:22:48

Gavin Campbell joined me actually two weeks ago because we were off. But Gavin Campbell joined me. We spent a bunch of time talking about home automation. He's kind of a home automation expert. We talked a lot about Home Assistant, which is a dashboard that you can use to do that. He is an expert programmer that as well. It's actually kind of an average guy episode with home automation. So don't be turned off by the credentials Gavin's a great guy. You can check it out today. Homegadgetgeekscom.

Dave Jackson: 1:23:15

Nice. On the School of Podcasting, I have literally like five different things I could talk about. It's just a matter of which one. There was a great, and we're going to bring it up today and we ran out of time, but there's a marketing report that came out about what's working and what's not working in podcasting, so I might talk about that. I might talk about one of the things and I should have asked you about this being that you deal with coaches. When people hire coaches, then get their advice and then ignore every word of it. That's a thing and apparently it happens a lot. Yeah, so I think I'm probably going to go with that, like how to work with a coach and how to figure out when you need a coach and why you need a coach, and things of that nature, Because really from now to the end of the year, I'm really focusing on making your show better, and so I was really happy when Podpage rolled out that survey, because I'm going to be doing one of those and things like that. So that's coming up.

Dave Jackson: 1:24:10

On the School of Podcasting, thanks to Dan over at BasedOnHisTrueStoryPodcastcom and Mark over at PodcastBranding. Thanks to Dan over at basedonastruestorypodcastcom and Mark over at podcastbrandingco. Thanks to one and only Jim Cullison from homegadgetgeekscom and I'm Dave Jackson from theschoolofpodcastingcom. If you're watching live, of course, like subscribe, ring the bell and we will say you. We'll see you next week with another episode of Ask the Podcast Coach.